I posted the pre-christian version of the Lord's Prayer to my Six Degrees Bulletin Board. Here is some of the discussion that resulted there:

Rhonda wrote:

The prayer doesn't surprise me in the least, the bible was written by man, and many of the rules in it are good common sense to avoid illness and to keep order in an everexpanding society. Easier to get people to follow the rules if they come from a supreme being.

I believe in god but belong to no established religion. It's been my personal experience that they aren't very charitable, nor do they practice what they preach. Christians are indeed in the minority worldwide and have a habit of insisting that others believe in their views.

As for god-he's universal.

Margie replied to Rhonda:

Not everyone who calls themselves a Christian or goes to a church is actually a Christian.

Rhonda replied back to Margie:

Don't I know it! However technically you just have to believe Jesus is the son of God to be a christian. You don't have to be a kind or caring person.

Jerry wrote:

Amen! I'm so glad you sent this! Thank You!

Margie asked me:

Sorry John, Since it says in the Bible that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Why would He behave differently to different groups if all gods are the same? Truth is not established by majority rule.
-- The Joy of the Lord is my Strength

I replied back to Margie:

Do you speak to your child at six years old the same way that you speak to him when he is twenty? Do you talk to your daughter the same way when she is going out on her first date as you do to your son when he goes out on his first date?

I believe that the one GOD (I use the singular deliberately, you said "if all gods are the same") speaks to each person and each group in the way that is best for that person or that group at the time. His messages to me when I was a child are different from his messages to me now that I'm an adult. I can read the same book and get different messages from the same words depending on how my heart is ready.

We see some of this difference between the Old and the New Testaments in the Christian Faith. The old testament prohibited the eating of pork. The New Testament is considered by many to have cancelled that prohibition.

Why would God prohibit eating of Pork in olden days and not today? In our more modern times, preparation methods have become safer.

God promised that all of Adam's righteous children would be saved after 5,500 years (First Book of Adam and Eve). God promised that all of Abraham's descendents were his children. Christianity did not cancel these promises. In my opinion, Jesus came to extend this promise to the Gentiles. The Jewish people were already God's children.

I see nothing that says that God couldn't have chosen to appear to other people in other guises. His message to people in Africa could have been what He believed they needed to hear at the time. Ditto other peoples. It's just like God's message to my sister appears to be different than God's message to me. We can both be right.

Keep an open mind, and don't try to tell someone else that they are wrong. I do not deny you your religion. I believe that your religion is just as right as the one I grew up in, and just as right as the one I find myself in now. I have extended beyond one faith and instead try to look for things that I can add to my system of belief.

Ed wrote:

Only man's preception of GOD's word changes. Look at what all religions have in common .Then you get a hint at a greater truth.

I replied back to Ed:

Exactly, Ed. When you read read the Bible twenty years ago, you got different things out of it than when you read it today. Ten years from now, you will get something else out of it when you read it.

The same is true of other religious books.

As you say, GOD is the greater truth. Somewhere, the Bible says that only a small part of the hem of God's robe will fill a church. God is so much greater than just that part of the hem.

Margie replied to Ed:

They have a lot in common because they are trying to fill a void in their life that can only be filled by the one true God.

Kim wrote:

I must say that I very rarely respond to the myriad of messages that seem to find their way to me from Six Degrees. Yours however was fascinating and I felt I really wanted to respond.

I agree wholeheartedly that it is wonderful to find more pieces to the bridge that binds us all together - I take it further and live by the fact that there is not just one God (just going under different alias') but also one Race - Human!

Where is in the world did you find that book? And what prompted you on this quest? I'd be really interested to find out! Best wishes to you

I replied back to Kim:

<< ... fascinating and I felt I really wanted to respond. >>

This is why I keep getting Six Degrees BB postings going to my e-mail. I also get occasional e-mail that is worth reading, and have times that I feel that I sometimes help people by replying to their messages.

<< ... more pieces ... bind us all together ... not just one God ... but also one Race - Human! >>

AMEN. There is a lot that holds us together. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that there's even more that we have in common, but we won't find out how much that really is until we are perfect ourselves, in heaven, nirvana, or whatever name we believe it to be.

<< Where is in the world did you find that book? >>

My father was a Lutheran Minister, though non-traditional. He was ahead of his time. I kept some of his books after his death, and just happened to pick it off the shelf the other day. Your pastor might just have the book. I don't have the title in front of me, but ask about LOST BOOKS OF THE BIBLE and FORGOTTEN BOOKS OF EDEN.

<< And what prompted you on this quest? I'd be really interested to find out!

Dreams prompted this quest. Around March of 1997, I had a dream to not cut my hair. I didn't understand it, but I listened. About two months later, I had three dreams in one night while attending a three day convention called "The Third Wave." In the third dream, "Jesus/Buddha/Great White Spirit" came up as three of the MANY names that God has used to reach us. In that dream, I was influenced to tell those in doubt about their faith NOT to deny what they believe, because if they deny something they believe just because someone else tells them they're wrong, they are denying part of the same God that both of us believe in. My actual words in that dream were "Do not deny YOUR God!"

I've had other later dreams, thought-provoking, etc. In one, I dreamt that I was dreaming, and in that inner dream, I met God. But when I woke up out of that inner dream, I couldn't remember one thing he said, and lamented that to the people who were in the outer dream. Something came to my heart and told me, made me feel, that the reason I couldn't remember it was because God's message for each of us is different, and if I had remembered what God said to me and repeated it to someone else, someone else might think the message was for them, but it wasn't, because God's message for each of us is different in some way.

Now, I find myself wondering if I'll be able to find a way to go to seminary or its equivalent. There is so much study that I need to do, and I've had dreams that included such study.

Ruth wrote:

Thanks for that message about the original "Lord's Prayer" - I wanted to learn more about your multidimentional ideas - but could not get to your site. The redirection service you use is all I got. Please give me the actual url to visit.

I replied:

The path <http://talk.to/multidenominational.cafeterealist> should work now. I had just registered for the address when I posted the 6D message. I'll try to post more of my stuff to that page shortly.

One of my e-mail addresses is: (webmaster (at) mazes.com)

Laschele wrote:

I'm not sure I understand why this is evidence of Christians sharing God with worldwide religions. From a historical standpoint, I see it more as an explanation of how what is known today as the Lord's prayer came to us. Jesus often used what was familiar to those He was teaching. Adapting a traditional prayer that had been used for a while would be a good way for His followers to remember how to pray. Thanks for the bit of history.

Margie replied to Laschele:

I was thinking about that also. But you put it so nicely I don't have to. Thank you

I replied to Margie:

<< sharing God with worldwide religions. >>

Maybe I used the wrong word. I didn't mean to say that Christians are sharing God with others. That implies that they are sharing what was originally theirs with others.

Instead, I look at it from the point that God is sharing Himself with ALL of us.

When two children share toys at a day care center, one isn't sharing what is his with the rest, they are all sharing what came to them from the center itself. When two religions share one God, it isn't that one religion is allowing the other to share their God, it's that the God is allowing both religions to worship him.

<< ... how what is known today as the Lord's prayer came to us. Jesus often used what was familiar to those He was teaching. Adapting a traditional prayer that had been used for a while would be a good way for His followers to remember how to pray. Thanks for the bit of history. >>

Yes. And Jesus certainly had LOTS of material to draw from. When I read articles or other material by buddhist authors, I see things that certainly could have been read by Jesus. There is certainly agreement between various materials.

Unfortunately, what was probably obvious to the disciples is not so obvious to many people today. Many people today consider "The Lord's Prayer" to be an exclusively Christian prayer, even though there is nothing in the prayer that requires a belief in Jesus.

Margie wrote:

John you said, 'Do you talk to your daughter the same way when she is going out on her first date as you do to your son when he goes out on his first date?'

I may use different words but I will have the same message. I would not tell my son to go out get drunk and get lucky and tell my daughter to stay sober and a virgin. I will tell them the same thing.

God is the same way. He might use different words for different people at different times but His message is the same: The only way to Him is through His son, Jesus.

You also said, 'God promised that all of Adam's righteous children...' But Jesus said that no one is rightous.

'all of Abraham's descendents were his children' Jesus also said that God could make descendents of Abraham from the rocks. So being Jewish isn't going to save anyone.

I replied:

<< God is the same way. He might use different words for different people at different times but His message is the same ... >>

Right ... God uses different words for different people at different times. Ultimately, his message for all of us will be the same, when we have heard all of his words. The people of 2,000 years ago weren't ready for some of the messages that people understand today, even though they read the same words. Two thousand years ago, when they read that the world was created in seven days, they believed that the day was only 24 hours long. Now, many believers admit that God may have used evolution as part of his process of creation. Even the Roman Catholic Pope admits this.

<< 'all of Abraham's descendents were his children' Jesus also said that God could make descendents of Abraham from the rocks. So being Jewish isn't going to save anyone. >>

I acknowledge your right ot believe that God's promise was cancelled. I choose to believe that Jesus didn't cancel God's promise, but instead extended that promise to MORE people. The old testament promises of God were given ONLY to Abraham's children and his children's children. The new testament promises of Jesus (God) were given to the rest of the world.

If merely part of God's hem will fit into the church (which is in the New Testament by the way, I can't remember the reference, but I read the New Testament Lesson at church the Sunday it came up, just a few weeks ago (May)), and

If the Bible completely fits inside the church,

Then there must be more to God than what is inside the Bible.

I choose to believe that God is INFINITELY BIGGER than the millions of words that are in the Bible. If you choose to believe ONLY in the words of the Bible, then I challenge you to tell me where Cain and Adam and Eve's third son's wives came from? There must be other inspired WORDS OF GOD out there, more than just what is in the Bible.

If you are willing to admit that there might be more truth out there, then I refer you to THE LOST BOOKS OF THE BIBLE AND THE FORGOTTEN BOOKS OF EDEN. Links to these books are on my page at < http://www.mazes.com/LordsPrayer.html>.

There are also MANY other books out there that have God's truth in them, if you are willing to keep an open mind.

These additional messages are not limited to books. For example, I kept a few episodes of the TV Series Babylon Five on videotape because of messages I received from them.

In one, a group of telepaths sang a hymn, "We will all come together in a better place" at the end of an hour which found them persecuted by one of the unliked characters.

"And we will all come together in a better place, a better place than this,
My love will guide you, my love will hold you, and my love will show you the way.
There will come a tomorrow where we're free from all sorrow
And our love will show us the way
We are strong in each other, we are sister and brother
and we will all come together in a better place, a better place than this,
My love will guide you, my love will hold you, and my love will show you the way
There will come a tomorrow where we're free from our sorrow
And our love will show us the way."
. . . lyrics of a song that was sung at the end of one episode of "Babylon Five"

In another, one of the alien leaders wrote a "Declaration" that was simply wonderful.

Declaration of Principles

The universe speaks in many languages but only one voice. The language is not Narn or Human or Centauri or Ga'en or M'barri. It speaks in the language of trust. It speaks in the language of strength and the language of compassion. It is the language of the heart and the language of the soul. But always, it is the same voice. It is the voice of our ancestors speaking through us, and the voice of our inheritors waiting to be born. It is the small still voice that says, "We are one. No matter the blood, no matter the skin, no matter the world, no matter the star, we are one. No matter the pain, no matter the darkness, no matter the loss, no matter the fear, we are one. Here, gathered together in common cause, we agree to recognize this singular truth, and this singular rule, that we must be kind to one another because each voice enriches us and ennobles us, and each voice lost diminishes us. We are the voice of the universe, the soul of creation, the fire that will light the way to a better future. We are one.

There are many other messages that God would like us to hear and understand, if we just look for them.

Margie also wrote:

Real dreams from God never contradict the Bible. He would never equal Himself with Budda because what Budda teaches contradicts what the Bible teaches.

I replied:

Have you read Buddhist literature from the time of Buddha? I ask the question that way for the same reason that you would not want people reading some of the junk that is passed off by some theologians today as being Christian.

I would be interested in seeing some of the writings of Buddha that you say contradict the Bible?

If you tell me that Buddhists are wrong because they believe that Buddha is a God, then I will tell you that you are wrong, because the man that we now call Buddha never claimed to be a God. He taught that each of us have the power to find the "Buddha" that is within us. Many Christians teach that we need to find the Christ that is within us.

When I read Buddhist Literature (I have something called a Buddhist Bible at home), I read those words as meaning that we each need to look inside ourselves to find the presence of the spirit, that sense of perfection and goodness that God wants us to find inside each of us.

If you utterly deny the teachings of one faith without even trying to understand that faith, then you risk denying part of God. God is infinite. It is impossible for any one of us, or even for all of us as one gigantic committee, to see all of God.

We are like the story of the blind men and the elephant. One man saw the tail by touching it with his hands. One man saw the trunk with his hands. Another man saw the leg. Another man saw the skin (hide). Later, each man tried to describe the elephant and could not agree with each other.

I believe that you see a different part of God than I see. In some cases, what we see overlaps. For example, we both believe that Jesus came to Earth to bring his message to more people. But, in some cases, we see different parts of God. You believe that 70% of the world is (doomed to hell or damnation or nonexistence or whatever) because they do not acknowledge Jesus by the specific name Jesus to be God's son. I, however, believe that God may have come to those other people with the message that he believed they needed to hear at those times in their existences, and that they may believe in Jesus, but by a different name (like the American Indians believe in the Great Spirit).

I dreamt that Jesus and Buddha and Great Spirit and many other names are names that God has used to reach his people. I believe that when the Egyptians believed in multiple Gods, that they really believed in God, and that God may have appeared to them in multiple images, like different facets of his love and being.

I also dreamt the words "Do not deny YOUR God" with the emphasis on YOUR. I am not asking you to deny your god. I believe that your God is my God. I am asking you not to ask other people to deny their God, because if you ask them to deny their God, you might actually be asking them to deny part of your God. Instead, I ask you to study what they believe about their God, and see if you can't see a reason to add part of what they believe to what you believe.

Margie wrote:

We finally have something in common! I love Babalon 5. Although I don't agree with most of their spiritual content. I enjoy the stories and charatures.

I replied:

Margie: << Although I don't agree with most of Babylon 5's spiritual content. I enjoy the stories and characters. >>

When I watch B5, I sometimes think of the stories like when I read Jesus's parables. For example, I changed the 'Declaration of Principles' in my heart to something like:

God speaks in many languages but only one voice. His language is not Catholic or Lutheran or Jewish or Hindu or Whatever. God speaks in the language of trust, of strength, of compassion. God speaks to our hearts and to our souls. But always, it is the same voice. It is the voice of our ancestors speaking through us, and the voice of our inheritors waiting to be born. It is the small still voice that says, 'We are one. No matter what we believe, no matter what our denomination, no matter our appearance, we are one. Here, gathered together in common cause, we agree to recognize this singular truth, that we must be kind to one another. Each voice enriches us and ennobles us. Each voice denied diminishes us. We are the voice of the universe, the soul of creation, the fire that will light the way to a better future. We are one in the God that we all believe in."

We can look for God in different places. Many books and resources show cooperation between groups and between religions.

We're seeing some of this in our modern times. You might remember that Luther started the process that resulted in Protestantism (no, he did not intend to create Lutheranism). The Pope is getting ready to sign a statement (on Oct 31 '99, 472nd anniversary of when Luther disagreed with Catholic doctrine) that Luther was right about being saved (see <http://library.advanced.org/12160/people/luther.htm>). Luther, a catholic priest, stated that we are saved only by the grace of God. One of his disagreements with doctrine was that you could buy grace (indulgences) or get it by good works.

Another example of worldwide cooperation is the agreement, two years ago, between the Evangelical Lutheran Church, the United Presbyterian Church, the United Church of Christ, and the United Reform Church that pastors and communion (Lord's Supper) may be shared, in essence agreeing that they all worship the same God. I attended what might have been the first ever joint Presbyterian/Lutheran service, celebrated the first Reformation Sunday after that agreement, an event that made the front page of the county paper two days in a row.

One of my favorite statements about Martin Luther was this: 'Martin Luther said that man's personal relationship with God is based on individual acceptance of God's gift of love.'

My big point is that we are 'Saved by the Grace of God.' Man does not decide if a man is saved. Only God makes that judgment. If God is infinite, we can state with certainty that we do not know all of His plan. Thus, we have to assume God may have a plan for those who believe in Him and not in Jesus, a plan we don't know about because there may be words from God that he has not yet revealed to us. Obviously, all of God's knowledge will not fit into the Bible. If it did, then God would not be infinite. God must have also put meaning 'between the lines' and in other places for us to find it.

If we can find Good outside the Bible, then isn't is just slightly possible that God wants us to find Good there? None of us can answer with certainty, unless we are perfect.

I'm not perfect. Because I'm not, I admit there are things about God I have not learned yet. I know that no matter how many times I read the Bible cover to cover, I will still not know everything. God cannot fit between the covers of one book. He cannot fit inside one church, as the Bible tells us (only part of the hem of His robe fills the church). If that much of God fills the church, then how much of God is there out in the world that we have to look for.

Jody wrote:

<< John, A friend sent me your posting. I would argue that major religions are fundamentally different - and that there are absolutes -there is right and there is wrong. I believe that Jesus is the only way, and He has had an awesome impact on my life. Jody >>

I replied:

Jody, Jesus has had an awesome impact on my life also, but that does not make the name "Jesus" the only way to God. Isn't it possible that the entity we know and love as Jesus has used other forms and names in order to talk to and reach other peoples?

How about the religion or person or God that originated "The Lord's Prayer"? Did Jesus write the Lord's Prayer? Look at
. . . http://www.mazes.com/LordsPrayer.html
. . .for a version of the Lord's Prayer that existed at least by the year 150 B.C.

The copy I quote is in the "First Book of Adam and Eve" <http://www.bible2000.org/lostbooks/1adam.htm>, which was written by an unknown Egyptian author, originally written in Arabic then translated into Ethiopic.

This Lord's Prayer, or one virtually identical to it, can be found in the Talmud, a set of rabbinical commentary. That copy of the Lord's Prayer also pre-existed Jesus. You can read about the Talmud copy and compare it to the Christian Lord's Prayer at <http://www.halcyon.com/theosnw/world/christ/xt-oste.htm>.

I vaguely recall that Jesus was addressed as Rabbi in some Bible stories. You know that "rabbi" means "teacher". In ancient times, you didn't have to go to seminary to be a rabbi.

Since Jesus was a "rabbi," he certainly had access to the Talmud. Perhaps he found it there and used it,

OR

if my previously mentioned theory is correct, maybe he gave The Lord's Prayer to that unknown Egyptian author, and gave it to the person who wrote it into the Talmud before his (Jesus's) birth, then gave it to the Christians when he gave it to the disciples.

Many world religions have the legend of the flood in their histories. Likewise, various world religions tell the legend of Adam and Eve. Many world religions have "The Golden Rule". In all three of these examples, many of the world religions had these things BEFORE their appearance in the Judeo-Christian Bible, or had them in their literature at such a time and place that they couldn't have been copied from the Jewish or Christian documents.

Have you tried to study religions you say are wrong? When a 150BC EGYPTIAN author writes a virtually identical Lords Prayer, you have to admit his religion might be one that worships the same God.

The Bible does NOT contain everything God wants us to know. A disciple, who travelled with Paul, named Barnabas, told a group of Christians that they cannot understand everything. . . . Barnabas 17:2 "For if I should write to you concerning things immediate or future, ye would not understand them, because they are put in parables. So much then for this." <http://www.bible2000.org/lostbooks/barnabas.htm>

Where did Cain's wife come from? Was there another creation over in the next county? The answer is in "The First Book of Adam and Eve" (cited above, as written by an unknown Egyptian Author).

Why did God reject Cain's offering but accept Abel's? 1A&E's reason is better than Genesis's. Read BOTH before you say one is wrong. Why can't both be right?

John